Annie Wang: 0:03

Welcome to the Hearts in Taiwan podcast, where we explore and celebrate our connections to Taiwan. I'm Annie.

Angela Yu: 0:09

And I'm Angela.

Annie Wang: 0:10

And today we're talking about making Taiwanese food at home. All right. So one of my favorite things in life in general, is food. So it should come as no surprise that one of my favorite parts of Taiwanese culture is dun dun dun the food.

Angela Yu: 0:30

Same same, but I think I, it took me a while to even recognize what Taiwanese food is because growing up, I wasn't really even conscious of which restaurants were Taiwanese and which ones were Chinese. We didn't have so much distinction between even regional Chinese food. It was just like all Chinese restaurant growing up and then living outside of the Bay Area, there were even fewer restaurants to find. And, and like, I think in Boston, I can remember two Taiwanese restaurants that I went to regularly, and that was it. That was the Taiwanese food scene.

Annie Wang: 1:09

In San Diego, when I went to school there, there was not that I was aware of any Taiwanese food. There was like Vietnamese and Korean and Chinese, but because I was so close to LA, that's where I really realized there was a lot of Taiwanese food there.

Angela Yu: 1:29

But when you can't get to a Taiwanese restaurant, the next best is making it at home. There's one problem with that though. Right?

Annie Wang: 1:41

well, big barrier is if you don't cook, which seems weird, I would say, to most people probably, that we're doing an episode about making Taiwanese food at home when neither of us cooks at home, but just because you don't cook doesn't mean you can't love the people who do, right?

Angela Yu: 2:04

Yes. Yes. So case in point, my husband does all of the cooking in our house and he's Cantonese. So, his home culture food is really Cantonese food. Food is really his love language, so one of the ways that he shows me love that he's always cooking Taiwanese dishes for me. Funny cuz he's actually better at making Taiwanese food than I am, and he, definitely is really mindful of finding ingredients that are made in Taiwan or grown in Taiwan and as I've been discovering more Taiwanese ingredients sources, I've been buying stuff but I know that Ray's actually gonna be the one that uses the ingredients that I I buy.

Annie Wang: 2:52

Either you can have a partner who cooks for you, or if you're like me and you don't have a partner at home, you can outsource everything, including home cooking. Which I'm pretty good at and I have successfully done. I've hired somebody who cooks food in my home. I've also participated in group buys of other people who cook food at home. And then we all just go in and we go pick it up a few days a week. There is an option for everything, which I love the world that we live in for that.

Angela Yu: 3:31

Yes. And also just to even learn about, Taiwanese food or distinctions of Taiwanese food. I'm finding that following the accounts on social media makes it really easy, even if I never intend to do what I see on Instagram. Yeah I think it's really inspiring to see what people are cooking these days especially in this Taiwanese Home Cooking Facebook group, that I'm part of, I see the, the waves of, like, this Taiwanese food is at Costco . So like everybody goes crazy about something, a new offering at Costco that makes it easier to make Taiwanese food at home. So that Facebook group, the Taiwanese Home Cooking Facebook group is actually started by a couple of my friends and one of those accounts that I follow on Instagram. And, her name is Joy Huang.

Annie Wang: 4:29

So today we are talking about one of my favorite topics, Taiwanese food, and joining us is Joy Huang. She has been sharing beautiful photos and personal experiences with cooking since 2008, with her blog, cleverly named The Cooking of Joy. She also shares drool worthy photos of her creations on Instagram and last year she and a few friends started a Facebook group called Taiwanese Home Cooking that hosts lively discussions amongst tens of thousands of members.

Angela Yu: 5:03

And Joy has been featured on Bon Appetit, Food 52, and Some Good News. So I, I hear that one of your happiest moments, about the Some Good News feature was John Krasinski pronouncing your name correctly? How would anybody pronounce your name incorrectly?

Joy Huang: 5:25

Growing up, I've had many instances of people saying it, so it's spelled H U A N G in English. And so people say Huang all the time. I mean, Huong is the correct pronunciation, but it's yeah, I'm just used to it being pronounced incorrectly so often that when someone gets it right without asking me first, I'm always like, Wow. You know how to say my name?

Angela Yu: 5:50

oh my goodness. Like, I didn't realize that Huang had the same issues as we do with our last name Wang. And like we had a whole episode about do people pronounce it Wang or Wong

Joy Huang: 6:02

Yeah.

Angela Yu: 6:04

and I didn't even know there was any ambiguity with Huang but I guess coming from the American English context.

Joy Huang: 6:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Annie Wang: 6:11

So to start off with, before we get into all the food stuff, which I am the most excited about, we definitely wanna hear about your family background.

Joy Huang: 6:20

I was born in the States in Florida and I suppose for the first bit of my life, I considered myself like mostly Asian American or even Chinese American cuz I was going to a Chinese church, but then in eighth grade my family moved to Ohio and we started going to a Taiwanese church. And even then, you know, I was just like 12, 13 years old. I didn't really think about my identity, I suppose, until I went to TAF, Taiwanese American Foundation, which used to be in Grand Rapids in the summer. And you know, it was a one week camp where a bunch of other Taiwanese American kids like me would go and realize there are other Taiwanese Americans in the Midwest and it was, you know, it was really cool cuz I, I finally learned, that Taiwanese American was an identity and that it applied to me and it made me really proud to be able to own that. and yeah, so I guess just, been identifying as Taiwanese American ever since.

Angela Yu: 7:24

I've heard a lot about that camp, but I haven't heard like a personal story about its impact on somebody. So that's really cool

Joy Huang: 7:32

yeah. No, it's great for Midwest kids, cuz I mean, you know, not being in the East Coast or California, there's there, aren't a lot of other, even just Asian Americans in, you know, in the area. So to, to be able to be at a place where everyone kind of, you know, looks similar and has similar backgrounds is very rewarding, especially when you're in that developmental portion of your life.

Angela Yu: 7:58

So, so you grew up in the Midwest.

Joy Huang: 8:01

I really wanted to go back to the east coast. So I was in upstate New York for college and in New Jersey for grad school. And then after that, I actually moved to Taiwan for a year to teach English and started a started church in Chiayi, it was kind of a a one year missions calling that I did, and it was very eyeopening for me because I, I guess it made me realize how deeply the Taiwanese American, how important it was for me to have both sides of that.

Angela Yu: 8:33

Mm.

Joy Huang: 8:34

I'm in Taiwan and I don't really speak Mandarin that well, I don't speak Taiwanese at all. I can't read anything or barely can read anything. When people see me, they would probably just assume that I am Taiwanese. And then once I opened my mouth, they're like, what is wrong with her? you know, and I wasn't in Taipei, so being in a more like rural area, there just weren't a lot of other people who looked like me and sounded like me. So it was, it was pretty tough for me to have to deal with that crisis of identity, And then yeah, after that came back to the east coast and then Boston in 2003 and became a Red Sox fan before they won the World Series in 2004, which very important. And yeah, so I've been here 19 years in September. And it's the longest I've lived anywhere in my life and I love it here.

Angela Yu: 9:27

So what inspired you to start cooking and then to share it online?

Joy Huang: 9:33

I've always loved eating so that cooking, you know, just was a natural extension of that. The whole sharing it online thing started one year when I wanted to make a present for my mom. And so she is like the best home cook I know. Every time I go visit her, she's cooking up a storm and it's always so delicious. So obviously I wanted to learn what she was making, but if your moms are anything like mine, when you ask her like, oh, so how do you make this? There's no measurements. It's like, oh, well, you know, chabuduo this and whatever. It's like, no, I can't deal with that, cause my training is as a, as a chemist, as a scientist, so I need kind of like exact measurements,

Annie Wang: 10:17

God.

Joy Huang: 10:18

especially at the beginning. My idea was to make a cookbook of her recipes. So I bothered her like over Thanksgiving and Christmas to tell me like, how much of this do you add and whatever. And I, wrote everything down and then I tried making it myself and I would take some pictures. And this is back before smartphone. So I was using my digital camera to take these pictures and then I put it all together in this book. So I shipped it to her and then it, this is a funny story actually. So I told her I got her and my sister-in-law, my brother's wife, the same gift. They actually share the same birthday. And my mom hates surprises. So she's always like, oh, well, what is it? And then I hate telling her. So I made her guess, you know, like yes or no questions. And she figured out it was a book. And then she figured it out it was a cookbook. And then she got angry, cuz she's like, why do I need a cookbook? I'm a good cook. And then I'm like, no, you'll like it. I promise. She's like, I don't know. So she finally got it and she called me and she was like crying. She's like, I love it. Thank you so much. So yeah, it's like those moments when you can make your mom cry from happiness are to be savored. So yeah, I had all the recipes, I had some pictures and this was when food blogs were a huge thing, at least to me. So I was like, well, I have like, the, the building blocks of a food blog. So why don't I just start something? And if, if no one reads it, that's fine. At least I have a receptacle for me to like reference when I'm gonna cook in the future. So that's, how The Cooking of Joy started.

Angela Yu: 11:57

When I look back at your blog on The Cooking of Joy, the first post is November, 2008 with crystallized ginger. I think it's very appropriate, cuz it's an Asian snack. And it's, so it's something that you wouldn't find on in other major food blogs, right? Like that more maybe mainstream cuisines or, or well, travelled cuisines. But just to give an idea to people of what they might find on your blog, one of the things that I love about the blog days is that , it was one of the features is that the publisher could put a, like a word tags

Joy Huang: 12:36

like a tag mm-hmm

Angela Yu: 12:37

list on the side. And so you've been very diligent about tagging your posts of, of like what , what is this post related to, and there's statistics of like, what are the most common themes that come up. So desserts is the biggest one that jumps out, so would, would you say that you focus more on the sweet dishes?

Joy Huang: 12:57

I think it just comes about inadvertently because, it's not so much that I have a sweet tooth versus a non sweet tooth. I like all foods equally. But I guess desserts can usually be a little more photogenic. So like once I started Instagram, I started concentrating more on making like pretty food, you know? Yeah, so that's really the only thing. And I guess also with savory foods, especially with, I guess I've become my mom a little bit. like, sometimes I don't feel like figuring out all the different measurements and I'm just cooking by feel. And so it's harder to, you know post a recipe for something like that.

Angela Yu: 13:35

right. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Baking is much more precise, and you need those recipes . And then we see ice cream and vegetarian food, a lot of bread and use of eggs, but one of the tags I am not sure about Boston Organics. Is it comes up really frequently on your blog. What is Boston Organics?

Joy Huang: 13:55

It's this company in the Boston area, they deliver organic produce to you and you could do it weekly or biweekly. So it's kind of like a CSA, but it's year round and it's not all local. So it's yeah, I, I just really like supporting them cuz well they deliver so that's, that's great.

Angela Yu: 14:14

You've, you've revised your beef noodle, soup recipe few times. What have you learned about beef noodle soup over the years that that made you revise your recipe?

Joy Huang: 14:23

That one is usually pretty popular, but I very rarely make it because I don't cook with meat a lot at home, and I don't like all that fat and tendon and stuff like that. I mean, that stuff is very popular for Taiwanese people. So when I have to reveal that people was like, what's wrong with you? But I do, you know I do like it because it has such a strong identity as a Taiwanese food, and my mom's is really good. She knows to only give me the pieces of beef that don't have any tendon or fat. I did revise it because the original one from my mom was super simple and I still love it, but you know, like just seeing how other people have made it over the years, I'm like, oh, you could actually add this, add that, and it'll add complexity to it. I don't think you actually need it to have a really good bowl of soup, but also my blood pressure has gone up in recent years, so I've needed to figure out how to use less soy sauce. Angela Yu: What are some of those Before, besides soy sauce, it was really just like star anise and rock sugar that were in there. And again, I really do think that's all you need but like a bay leaf, pepper corns like cinnamon stick, actually, my mom saw my revised recipe. She's like, why are you adding all these things? You don't need it. I was like, I know, I know. There are some really popular recipes out there for beef noodle. So, and the ingredient list is like 20 things long . If I did not know that you could make it simple and still have it taste really good, I would be way too intimidated to even try.

Angela Yu: 15:55

It seems like you know, a lot of the world's attention has shifted from reading blogs to you said you, you shifted over to Instagram. You know, how, how has your medium of choice shifted over the years? What, what are some things that you like better about some media and less

Joy Huang: 16:12

Yeah. Yeah, so I, you know, once I had all these pictures and Instagram was kind of starting off I just started posting on there and in the beginning it was more of like a personal Instagram. So just, just like random personal posts. But then one of my friends challenged me is like your, your food pictures are really good. So I challenged myself to try to post once a day. That went on for a couple years actually. And it was, it was nice cuz I'm not a very disciplined person at all. But this, you know, kind of gave me a schedule and it did make me think, okay, I have this ready for, you know, the next couple days, but I, I need something else and, and whatever. Yeah. And then eventually my feed, I guess, started really picking up. So I just focused more and more on it. And one thing that's very different about Instagram and the blog posts is like, you get this instant, I don't know if gratification is the right word, but you know, when people like it, you see the numbers you see instantly like, oh, okay. People like this, or, eh, people didn't like this at must as much, and I mean, I guess you guys probably remember during the pandemic when sourdough got to be like the super big deal, and I happened to already have been like baking sourdough before that all started. So I kind of had a head start. That's how I got featured on Bon Appetit.

Angela Yu: 17:38

So the, in both blogging, and creating for Instagram I think it, it sounded like you, you were a little bit swayed in what you've been making based on what might be good for content? Would, would you have more fun if you were just following, what you feel like eating?

Joy Huang: 18:00

I like being creative. I like being able to express myself in a visual medium anyway. So I think it actually was just a very nice confluence of my interests eating and arts, arty things. I definitely make and eat things that are not photogenic , you know? And sometimes I'm like looking at it. I'm like, I wish you could be prettier because I make, I make like tomato and eggs all the time. Or like, I don't know, just things on rice. Right. You know, just whatever I eat. And then it's like, oh, I wish I could post you, but it's not worth it. But it's okay, you're still delicious.

Angela Yu: 18:38

Some of the best tasting foods are not photogenic. What, what are some of the tips for people who also like to photograph their food?

Joy Huang: 18:45

So I have a special corner. It's actually like this corner back here, where I bring all my food and so my kitchen it's just a couple steps away. And it has good sunlight. So my biggest tip for taking good pictures is to only use sunlight as the light source because indoor light is too yellowish. And it, you especially don't wanna use a flash because that just makes everything super flat. I keep a lot of my props right there. I just use a napkin as a place mat usually, or have certain utensils that are pretty or that work well. And so I just keep it all in the same place and I usually have a pepper mill to add some pepper on top or whatever. Also while you're making the dish to think about what type of garnish you might wanna put on top, if there's anything you wanna drizzle to make it kind of stand out a bit and just to have that ready because you don't wanna have the dish done and you're like, oh shoot. I need to chop up some more scallions or whatever. Just, just make it all at the same time.

Angela Yu: 19:47

I'll try to, to take better pictures of the food that I eat. Now you started the Taiwanese Home Cooking Facebook group, which is much more interactive than other media, cuz it's all about, you know, commenting and it's not just you posting, but it's anybody in the group posting whatever they wanna talk about, their own explorations into making Taiwanese food at home. And I think this is, this seems to be also the first explicitly Taiwanese space that you've created rather than just a general food account. So what inspired you and your friends to start?

Joy Huang: 20:26

So I definitely wouldn't say that I started it. It would be my cousin, Sophia, who really gave us the impetus to actually do it. What happened was there was another Taiwanese group on Facebook about food that we were all a part of, but we were noticing that not everything on there was Taiwanese. There were just random scones and just a lot of random things. For my cousin, she's like, I don't have enough time to scroll through all this other stuff. I just want Taiwanese content. And then there was even one post where someone had posted a video about the PRC MREs, like meals ready to eat. And it was just so like offensive to have that on a Taiwanese space. But no one else seemed to really be bothered by it. So we're like, okay, this probably isn't the right space for us. And, you know, it's really easy to create a Facebook group. So Sophia reached out to her sister and me and a couple other, her friends who she knew were either passionate about food or passionate about Taiwanese spaces. And after talking about it for a couple days, we like, all right, let's just do it. And so we just started it. And then we invited our own friends obviously, and then they started inviting their friends. and now it's, we get like hundreds of submissions to join the group every day. And so yeah, it's like its own thing out there. We got the ball rolling, but now we're just watching it roll and become a huge snowman or something. Now it's at the point where there's definitely critical mass. We don't need to do anything anymore, except we still need to approve any posts that come in because yeah, I mean, we get things that are clearly not Taiwanese. But that's definitely raised a lot of interesting conversations within our mods about like, well, is this Taiwanese? I don't know. It's like Taiwanese-adjacent and we're like, yeah,

Angela Yu: 22:29

Having that responsibility kind of makes you question there are assumptions that I had that maybe I have to consciously think about

Joy Huang: 22:39

Yeah.

Angela Yu: 22:40

So I see in the, in the group that, you know, some topics end up being controversial and like, you know, people have really lively discussions about them.

Joy Huang: 22:51

One that came up recently was the whole boba versus bubble tes versus whatever else you might call it. I, it was something I saw on Reddit like someone was like, do people call this something other than boba? And so it just seemed so kind of ignorant that someone would think that there's only one way to call, you know, zhen zhu nai cha, this, this wonderful drink. I thought it would be fun to write up a post, like, okay. So what do you call this? And I just used the emoji, and tell me where you're from. And so I, I wouldn't say it was like heated, but, you know, everyone was like, most people are like, okay, this is what I call it. This is where I'm from. And, but some people were like very adamant that there's only one name for it that they were right.

Angela Yu: 23:35

I think we we remember from from our food Flavors of Taiwan episode in season one, Annie taught me that boba means large women's chest.

Annie Wang: 23:46

Just say it, Angela.

Joy Huang: 23:47

Big boobies.

Annie Wang: 23:48

We're all adults here.

Angela Yu: 23:50

And, that came up a lot in the responses to your poll, right? Pointing out when people refer to it as boba that it kind of rubs 'em the wrong way, because they're thinking about boobies and, and I was like, oh God, but, but boba is such the dominant vernacular now.

Joy Huang: 24:07

In California.

Angela Yu: 24:08

Oh, so still still to this day it's not the universal term in English?

Joy Huang: 24:13

I think in the Northeast at least we always say a bubble tea, like, do you wanna grab bubble tea? If I said boba, most of my Asian friends would know what I mean, but to me, boba is the actual tapioca pearl, but the drink is bubble tea to me.

Angela Yu: 24:29

Yes. And where Annie and I are kind of sacreligious, because we always say we're going to get boba, but we actually end up getting fruit tea.

Annie Wang: 24:36

with no boba in it

Joy Huang: 24:38

yeah. Yeah, but it means that in our heads, cuz you go to a boba shop to get that.

Angela Yu: 24:43

You're you're this like major touchpoint for people around Taiwanese cuisine and, and making it but you've revealed some things about yourself that , you, you are different from like most Taiwanese tastes like, like what you said about not loving the, the tendon-y fatty beef.

Annie Wang: 24:59

You know what? I don't like the tendon fat stuff, so I am right there with you.

Joy Huang: 25:04

Thank you.

Angela Yu: 25:05

But joy also revealed recently on, on the Facebook group that she doesn't like pineapple cake either.

Joy Huang: 25:12

Well, okay. So it's funny that you say that cuz someone made pineapple cake like locally and then she wrapped it up . She bought the wrappers in Taiwan and then made the pineapple cake and then used an iron to close it off. So the homemade ones, these are really good and I would eat this. So Jocelyn Shyong she made these thank you Jocelyn if you're listening. They're just so good.

Angela Yu: 25:39

If you are in the Facebook group, I'll point to her post about the pineapple cakes. Because the moderators have to approve people who wanna join, how do people join this group?

Joy Huang: 25:50

Yeah. So, it's really easy. You just look up Taiwanese Home Cooking in Facebook and it should come up as a group and then just click the join button. But we have two very easy questions that you need to answer. It's basically , do you promise to abide by the rules and , will you commit to just posting about Taiwanese or Taiwanese adjacent food? So basically, this is our mission and will you do it?

Angela Yu: 26:14

So last question about the group. What's one of your favorite posts or what things that you have learned from the Facebook group?

Joy Huang: 26:22

Two of 'em are posts from the very beginning. One of them actually still says since we're a small group, please tell us about yourself. And now, the group is like 30 something thousand people, but people are still answering it. They're saying why Taiwanese Home Cooking is important to them. So a lot of them are the Taiwanese diaspora, people who no longer live there and just wanna learn more about how to cook Taiwanese food. I also like the more random ones where it's like, I visited Taiwan once for business and I like the food so much that I'm joining this group to learn how to make it. Yeah. There's a lot of heartwarming stories in there. Some people are also sharing about how their parents have passed away and like they can't ask them anymore. And then the other one I can think of is I just asked for Taiwanese restaurant recommendations around the world. And I love maps like Google maps. So I started plotting where all of these are. At first it was like mostly California, like San Gabriel valley and New York City. And I put in some Boston ones, but it's filling out. And now there's places, like New Zealand and couple more places in Europe. There's sometimes trends that happen within the group where one person will ask, I need a restaurant recommendation for like Denver or that's making something up. And then after that there'll be like five more people asking about restaurant recommendations, wherever they are. So I'm like we have this map that we put a lot of work into!

Annie Wang: 27:51

Usually we ask our guests what they think it means to be Taiwanese, but since you've been part of so many food conversations, what would you say characterizes and distinguishes Taiwanese food from other similar or related cuisines?

Joy Huang: 28:07

That's a pretty hard question to answer. Taiwanese food has been influenced by so many different cultures because over the years, We've been occupied or invaded. So it's, kind of hard to say this is Taiwanese that is not Taiwanese food. But I did notice in a recent Munchies video that Eric Sze he had this quote was like it's not Taiwanese food if there isn't white pepper in it. That's a fact, look it up. Hmm, that's kind of true. And then he said the same thing about five spice powder as well. So, I guess to me Taiwanese food is what my mom made for me. Like Taiwanese home cooking is what my mom made for me, but obviously that's just one lovely women's cooking for her daughter that she loves. Yeah. I've learned a lot from this group about different dishes I had never even heard of. And then there's also how we have influenced other cultures too, there's different dishes from other cultures that share the same name. And I found that very fascinating.

Annie Wang: 29:11

So, is there some food that you would recommend people try actually cooking at home that maybe typically they would just default to buying at the store?

Joy Huang: 29:19

To me that would be dumplings like guo tie or shui jiao. Like I grew up going to dumpling making parties with my family and my family friends, you know, and we'd make hundreds and hundreds of dumplings. So it's something I do a lot at home even by my, myself. At this point, you know, I could whip out a couple hundred by myself just watching TV or whatever, but I've never had a store bought dumpling that's been anywhere close to a homemade dumpling. There's just something about the texture. And even if it's frozen, I make a couple hundred, I'll cook up a few right then, but then freeze most of them. But even when you recook it from frozen, it's still better than a store bought dumpling.

Angela Yu: 30:02

Yes.

Annie Wang: 30:03

a hundred percent. I can attest to that. Not because I have personally made at home dumplings, but I had somebody else make them and I totally agree. I can't even identify what it is, but it is mind blowing how good is. And I've shared it with my neighbors and actually Angela's

Angela Yu: 30:24

I bought them too. I bought a batch

Annie Wang: 30:25

they're so delicious. Everybody's mind blown is like, oh my how is it so much better? Right.

Joy Huang: 30:32

Yeah, I guess it's the love that you put into it, right?

Angela Yu: 30:37

Yes. If, if we're not making them at home ourselves, we all need to find an ayi that will make them.

Joy Huang: 30:43

Yes

Annie Wang: 30:44

exactly. So opposite question. What would you prefer to buy after you've tried making it at home?

Joy Huang: 30:52

Yeah, so for me, it's boba. I've tried making the dried ones. I've tried making it from the instant and it's just so much work and I've had too many fails, you know, so I, I'm not being paid to advertise for Trader Joe's, but I am impressed with their instant boba kit. But I also like supporting local boba shops, especially if they're not like large chains

Angela Yu: 31:17

I think I saw in the the Trader Joe's instant boba kit discussion on the Facebook group that somebody was suspecting that they're the same as the Costco packs that are sold the instant boba kits. Cuz the once you look inside the actual boba pouches have the very same look and even the printing of the lot number. So wow Annie, I think our next taste off maybe would be to try these instant boba kits against each other.

Joy Huang: 31:45

I wish join you for that,

Angela Yu: 31:48

yeah.

Joy Huang: 31:49

That is a great idea.

Annie Wang: 31:50

for that

Angela Yu: 31:51

for sure awesome. Yeah, let's do that. I, once did a workshop where we were cooking the tapioca balls from, like from the dried dried state and yeah, it was like 30 minutes of boiling

Joy Huang: 32:06

and stirring too, I think. Right?

Angela Yu: 32:09

I was like, I can't wait.

Annie Wang: 32:10

I

Angela Yu: 32:11

can't for, for

Annie Wang: 32:12

And I think the problem too is there's like a very specific point of the texture that you want and if over or undercook it's like, you ruin the whole thing

Joy Huang: 32:24

I mean, you can make it for like a party, so. then everyone can have it when it's good. But if you're making it just for a few people or just for yourself, you can't eat the whole thing and then you can't refrigerate it. Cuz then it gets hard

Angela Yu: 32:38

very frustrating.

Annie Wang: 32:41

So how can people learn, what's coming up next for you?

Joy Huang: 32:45

Sure. So Instagram at joyosity it's J O Y O S I T Y. One of those usernames you make when you're in your twenties . And then my blog is The Cooking of Joy so that the URL is cookingofjoy.com which a friend very kindly made for me. But yeah, those are probably the two best places to, to see what what's going on with me.. Annie Wang: Well, thank you so much Now I am starving and I am going to go and look for Taiwanese food to eat later today. Thanks so much for joining us for Hearts in Taiwan. Make sure to check out our show notes in the episode description for links to all the things we shared today

Angela Yu: 33:27

We'd love to hear from you. Our DMS are always open on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter or you can email us at hello@heartsintaiwan.com Until then, follow your curiosity,

Annie Wang: 33:41

and follow your heart.