[00:00:32] Annie: Welcome to the Hearts in Taiwan podcast where we explore and celebrate our connections to Taiwan. I'm Annie,

[00:00:38] Angela: And I'm Angela.

[00:00:39] Annie: and today we're proving that we are in fact, still alive. 

[00:00:43] Angela: The song you just heard was "PUNCHLINE" by Jaguar Jonze, a Taiwanese Australian artist, activist, and listener of this podcast. Listen for more about her and another Jaguar Jonze song at the end of the episode.

[00:00:56] Annie: Also, we have some recommendations resources to close season two of the podcast. I know there's been a huge gap since our last episode and now, so for all those people who have no idea where we disappeared to, it was just fall.

That was it.

[00:01:13] Angela: Fall for both you and me being working parents.

It hit me like a ton of bricks, like how much activity there was and how many other obligations I had in the fall. 

[00:01:23] Annie: True to season two format, we still actually feature guests today, even though the majority of this is the two of us talking to each other.

[00:01:34] Angela: One of the things we are noticing is that you know, we've been waiting for this for a long time, Taiwan has finally lightened its quarantine requirements. So this has been the first season since the onset of Covid 19, that people have been planning trips en masse back to Taiwan.

[00:01:56] Annie: Yeah, including my parents who Are there right now, living it up . They said, what we've been doing every day has been we eat, we go see friends, and then we sleep, and then we eat, we go see friends, and then we sleep and then repeat, repeat, repeat every single day. And I said, oh, tough life, And apparently all of their friends from the US are all over there right now, so they are eating with all of their friends from the us .

[00:02:27] Angela: That's so funny. I mean, what are, what are you going for if not to eat and see friends

[00:02:32] Annie: it's unfortunate we're not going yet.

[00:02:36] Angela: A lot of English speaking Taiwanese, diaspora have been posting about #TaiwanIsOpen and it's making us really miss and look forward to going back to Taiwan. 

[00:02:50] Olivia Chen: I am Olivia Chen, co-founder of Twrl Milk Tea. The next time I go back to Taiwan, I'm looking forward to supporting a lot of the small businesses that I used to go to a lot. And I can't wait to just walk into the airport and see huānyíng huí dào Táiwān. I'm looking forward to going home.

[00:03:06] Angela: So while we can't be there, we were lucky enough to be invited to a very special dinner that gave us a taste of authentic Taiwanese flavors.

It was hosted by the founder of Taiwanese American.org. Ho Chie Tsai. And he gathered a bunch of Taiwanese American community builders in Emeryville at a newish restaurant called Good To Eat that is led by co-owners chef Tony Tung and Angie Lin. And it just, it was such a beautiful dinner.

They call this series "ja ban bae", which means "have you eaten yet?" In Taiwanese? 

[00:03:53] Annie: This was full blown banquet style with 13 courses, and each and every one of them were incredibly delicious. So much of it was super nostalgic for me. 

[00:04:09] Angie Lin: My name's Angie Lin. I'm co-owner of Good to Eat Dumplings and Taiwanese Cuisine. next time when I go back to Taiwan, I want to, go to those, local, market to explore the fresh local ingredient and all the amazing food craft from all the food makers from all over the Taiwan, and I cannot wait to, to gather them all and bring that back to US. . 

[00:04:36] Angela: They told us some great stories about how they crafted the food. It really was true to the old Taiwanese style. They described it as humble, where it's not about flashy, like impress everybody with the luxury of the dishes .

It's more realistic where in, maybe in rural Taiwan, ingredients weren't as plentiful and you worked with what you had. And so you might see the same ingredient repeated in several dishes because that's what they had that week. And, but in each dish it had, it took different forms.

So it didn't feel repetitive. You said for you. it it brought back a lot of nostalgia for old flavors that used to eat.

 I told Angie and Tony that for me it was actually more educational for me because I was a really picky eater growing up. So 

[00:05:31] Annie: You were one of those kids.

[00:05:33] Angela: was, I was. And and I remember when I used to go to Taiwan, I was such a brat. I was like afraid of all the food. And so I would only eat soy sauce on rice and guo tie,

[00:05:45] Annie: shameful. Angela

[00:05:48] Angela: like anything I could douse in soy sauce. So . So it was actually like really wonderful to. To be able to eat these authentic flavors and and appreciate them as an adult. My favorite dish actually is one that I'm, I'm actually really proud. It was stuffed bitter melon.

I was like, oh, I'll, I'll try it because Ray, Ray loves winter melon, bitter melon. And I've always kind of avoided it, but at this dinner I was like, I'm gonna try everything because if I'm ever gonna like it, it's gonna be this way.

I'm prepared this way. And and I liked it. It wasn't bitter at all. This was very benign actually, the, the way that they prepared it and cooked it. And so it was that was my favorite because I, I kind of overcame my reputation as a picky eater.

[00:06:32] Annie: Bravo. Angela, you get a gold star . My favorite thing was actually the seafood soup. There was just so much stuff in there And it was so delicious, right? But it was just so full of flavor. And then when you pour the black vinegar into it, it totally made the, the dish.

[00:06:51] Angela: One of the things that I feel so guilty about this, my confession is I felt really bad sending food back that I wasn't able to eat because I am allergic to shellfish.

And of course, banquet style, there's a lot of dishes with seafood 

and I was like, oh, I don't want them to get, have the impression that like, it didn't taste good. Cause it's just that like, I couldn't eat it. A shrimp fell on my plate so I couldn't put it back. like, and so I was like, oh my gosh. I felt so bad. 

[00:07:21] Annie: But the most nostalgic for me was the lion's heads stew, because we would have it all the time growing up, so it is a reminder of my childhood. 

I got a little food souvenir. I got the abalone shell. Our side of the table, we were talking about how beautiful the the shell was and how we wanted to take home. the shell. I don't know what I was gonna do with it, but I said, this is so pretty. And one of the, chefs heard me and washed out one of the half shells and he brought it over to me. 

So I actually have it in on my bathroom counter, and I'll put my earrings or my or my necklace or whatever jewel, like little jewelry that I'm wearing that I need to take off if I go take a shower or whatever. So I stick it on that as a little jewelry tray.

[00:08:20] Angela: The food was delicious, but we also had amazing company. I mean, this is the first time that we had met any of these people that we've been seeing online, seeing, what they're publishing or making or writing in the world. We took the opportunity to ask a few of them what they're looking forward to when they go back to Taiwan. Now that Taiwan is open and here's what they had to say.

[00:08:47] Grace Hwang Lynch: I'm Grace Hwang Lynch, and I'm a writer focusing on food and Asian American culture. The thing I really look forward to, which is kind of strange, is I really wanna go to a grocery store in Taiwan because I love the grocery stores, like the, the big grocery stores where you can buy a lot of different things and all of the packaged foods and the fruits and the baked goods no trip to Taiwan is complete without going to Carrefour .

[00:09:13] Leona Chen: My name is Leona Chen. I am the editor-in-chief of TaiwaneseAmerican.org. And now that Taiwan is open, I am excited to check out all the cool places my sister discovered when she was a college student there.

[00:09:26] Peter Chu: Peter Chu, TAP-SF, uh, most looking forward to having at least one board member from TAP SF in Taiwan over the next several months. We'll be leaving items around the island and this is called geocaching. And then we'll each be taking turns, finding those items around the island, moving them around sharing the coordinates.

That's how we're gonna stay connected over the next several months.

[00:09:46] Leslie: I'm Leslie. I'm with the Facebook Taiwanese Home Cooking Group, and I'm looking forward to the food when I go back.

[00:09:52] Kimberly Yang: My name's Kimberly Yang. I'm the founder and chocolatier of Formosa Chocolates. I'm most looking forward to visiting Tainan with my mother. I've never been before and I'd love to see where she grew up. 

[00:10:02] Willy Wang: Hi, I'm Willy. I'm one of the founders of Taiwan Bento. Uh, when I go back to Taiwan next, I look forward to seeing the innovation that's occurred in Taiwan while I've been away. 

[00:10:13] Stephanie Lin: Hi, my name is Stephanie Lin. I am a news anchor with Channel 4 in the Bay Area. And the next time I go back to Taiwan, I am super looking forward to catching up and seeing my family again, exploring all the beautiful places that Taiwan has to offer. And everyone should go visit Taiwan because Taiwan is officially back open. 

[00:10:34] Annie: One of the other things that we acquired during said dinner was a cookbook. Which dun, dun dun. Shocker. Neither of us cooks. Why do we have a cookbook? We've been wanting to get it less for the actual cooking of the items in the cookbook and more as for the storytelling aspect of it . It's really is like a storybook in the form of a cookbook. It's called First Generation recipes from My Taiwanese American Home by Frankie Gaw. There's so many personal stories in here that he uses to intro each section and even also each individual recipe. And so actually one of the stories that intros, one of the sections does tie into some of the conversations we've had in the past. 

the beginning of the dumpling and bao section, is called Twinkie, which is actually so happens to be similar to the title of one of our past episodes, Twinkies and Bananas.

So this refers to being white on the inside and yellow on the outside. So yellow meaning you look yellow, meaning Asian, you present as Asian. But on the inside, everything about your actions and your value system or whatever it is you do and say is white on the inside.

He talks about him embracing his Twinkie identity. And also in one of our other episodes, our interview with Carey Lai.

[00:12:12] Angela: that was our third episode of season two, bringing Taiwanese values to entrepreneurship with Carey Lai 

[00:12:18] Annie: We had talked about something that also ties to his story in here. So we grew up identifying as Twinkies to varying degrees. And one thing here, I'm gonna read an excerpt from here, that totally resonated. He says, "I told myself I was never going to be one of those Asians, the ones that got sidelined for having even the slightest accent, or God forbid, brought their family's homemade dumplings for a cafeteria full of moody, hormonal teenagers to see and smell." And then later in here, now as an adult, he says, "and if I could go back in time, the dumplings I'd now proudly stuff my face in front of all those kids in the cafeteria are pork and cabbage dumplings."

Carey in that episode had mentioned something similar about him growing up and being ashamed of bringing whatever Taiwanese Chinese foods to school just as the rest of us second generation kids did. But now everybody loves the dumplings. Everybody wants to eat those damn dumplings.

And so now us embracing our identities and really leaning into that, we would now, if we could go back, really embrace and enjoy bringing those dumplings.

[00:13:38] Angela: I mean, that's, that's what this podcast is all about, right? . It was born in a time when we were recognizing that we should bring our whole selves to our American existence.

Not just the part that blends in with the majority, but celebrating the parts of us that, that make us different. What I, what I really like about Frankie's cookbook is that it's not purely just about Taiwanese food, it's actually more fusion recipes, right?

Like and specifically combining his Midwestern, like of, of all Twinkies. I think Midwestern is kind of like the most celebratory of American food in its most common form. Not, not like elevated classy American fare that you would see in, in restaurants today, but like carnival food, like, like corn dogs and tater tots

[00:14:37] Annie: Yeah.

[00:14:38] Angela: Frankie celebrates both sides of that. His love of, of Taiwanese food and his love of this, like good old Midwestern American food.

[00:14:47] Annie: speaking of, so lion's head, stew remember I was talking about that being very nostalgic for me? He has lion's head, Big Macs as one of

[00:14:56] Angela: Big Macs??

[00:14:57] Annie: Yeah. Big Mac as in the, the fast food sandwich.

[00:15:04] Angela: Oh my gosh. That's awesome. 

[00:15:07] Annie: So Angela, I've gone on and on about this cookbook, which I'm gonna cook nothing from, but sit here and drool about the food and read the stories, but you, I know you have also been eyeballs deep in some of your own content, so what's been going on?

[00:15:24] Angela:

I've gotten back into my habit of listening to audiobooks. So I have been listening to a bunch of books and they're caveat. They're not Taiwanese American books 

but they have been really interesting to me in terms of the Chinese side of my heritage.

There's a book called The Poppy War by RF Kuang.

 It's a historical fiction book because it's fiction, but it's based on like real wars that happened. But it's written in a very fantastical way. It's centers a female hero on her journey.

And two of her keys to success are number one. Qualifying from like being at an orphan in a village to take the entrance exam to get into the elite military academy. 

And then second that at this Military Academy, all of the, what you are measured on is your skill in martial arts. So this is where, how I became to understand how central martial arts is to Chinese culture. Where I just kind of like took it for granted before. 

And then another recommendation is Simu Liu's memoir called We Were Dreamers. And his first whole section of the book is telling his parents' story, which felt so much like what we did of interviewing our parents, understanding their, their experiences and their parents' experiences.

So it felt so rewarding to hear Simu honoring his parents by like really learning their stories and their journeys and then sharing them, telling them, and they lived during the Mao Zedong era of China.

Right around the cultural revolution and hearing his parents' experiences. He really pointed out how we as Americans all heard like one narrative about China in the American media back when we were growing up.

And we are, are hearing it again today in the media painting China as this monolithic entity.

But when you hear Simu talk about his grandparents' existence, his parents' existence and his own experiences when he grew up in, in China you start to see that it's actually very multifaceted and the individuals don't experience their country as like a monolith. but A huge theme in it is how intensely his parents, just like in the poppy war saw or experienced that that , gao kao, the test to get into the good schools was the only opportunity to change your life.

Another book that I just finished is the Many Daughters of Afong Moy by Jamie Ford. This is a trip because it's an interesting way of portraying intergenerational trauma. This premise of like the trauma actually being passed down through your genes. that like the women in this book actually end up having memories of the lives of their foremothers like, so it starts with Afong Moy is the first woman to ever immigrate from China to America.

And this is kind of a fictional imagination of her and then I think like four or five generations coming from her. And then finally to like present day in and the future, them struggling with memories of the traumas that their mother's, grandmother's, great-grandmothers back to Afong Moy have all experienced. And then finally one of our listeners reached out to us and told us about a book of poetry that she has written. It's called Blueprints by Jeanelle Fu. There's something you hear about in the literary world these days where especially in discussion about diversifying our bookshelves where books can be mirrors, they can be windows, and they can be sliding glass doors where for the reader mirrors reflect something that the reader has experienced themselves.

Windows give you a view into somebody else's experience . And then sliding glass doors actually bring you into the experience. I feel like this book is all three because for a Taiwanese American reader they would see a mirror in the parts where she talks about her memories of Taiwan.

And she actually has immersed herself in three religions. So she, she does a lot of Bible quotes as a Christian. . She does a lot of descriptions of Buddhist rituals that she's done with her family.

She, she also references a lot of Islamic culture because she, as an adult, spent significant amount of time in the Middle East. And so I feel like it's both a mirror for people who are Taiwanese-American, but a window for people who haven't lived in the Middle East. And then like when you reflect on these poems, they basically give you a sense that there are some universal experiences.

[00:20:56] Annie: People like to reflect on the year as it closes, and we are no different in that way. We basic bitches like that. 

[00:21:07] Angela: At the end of the year, something that's been really fun for everybody to share out is their Spotify Wrapped, which is usually like an embarrassing recap of like what you've been listening to on Spotify. But for podcasts, Spotify actually shares a Spotify wrapped for the podcast, which is who's been listening to you.

So we were listened to in 33 countries. Top five were US, Taiwan, Australia, UK, and Chile.

We were in the top 10 most shared podcasts globally. We're also on the top 10 most followed podcasts and people have been rating us on Spotify.

People have rated us a 4.9 stars on Spotify. So thank you for your five star reviews. Whoever is hating on us can go away.

[00:21:56] Annie: Hey. No, you know what? Remember we said once we're looking for the next stage in our progression of popularity is when we get haters 

[00:22:04] Angela: There you go. There you go. So yeah, thanks everyone for, for listening. Guess which episode is our most listened to episode?

It is the episode titled, Can You Be Chinese and Taiwanese at the Same Time?

[00:22:21] Annie: Ah. 

[00:22:21] Angela: A lot of people are asking this question, especially as it's coming to light that Taiwan and China are different and distinct.

 People are still messaging us about the old episodes that like, this is the first time that they're listening to these old episodes and they, they feel compelled to tell us about them. 

[00:22:39] Annie: So speaking of people reaching out to us, let's reach our hands into the virtual mail bag and pull out what have people reached out to us? One of them from a listener in the uk, "Enjoying the podcast, have listened to every episode. I admire the variety of tone and content. Well done." Well, thank you very much, I love positive feedback. I also am not opposed to constructive criticism anyways.

What else?

[00:23:19] Angela: We have a listener from Arizona who listened to us after we were featured in the New York Times. "I felt an instant kinship and connection to you because of so many familiar stories about growing up as a second generation Taiwanese American.

My father also studied at Indiana University and also did his postdoc at the Ohio State University." 

[00:23:42] Annie: Uh, Throwback to the Japanese one. Hearts and ears. In Japan. 

[00:23:50] Angela: The ears Part of the title made me remember what a fun episode that was. 

[00:23:55] Annie: So "I just listened to the Japanese influence episode. I am not of Asian descent, but lived with a multi-generational family in Tainan in the mid eighties. The grandparents had been educated during the Japanese occupation and I identified with so much of that episode."

Can't wait to listen to more. Well, we can't wait to have you listen to more. 

[00:24:16] Angela: Oh, and I was so happy we got a voice message. So on our website, if you go to the Contact us section, there is a way that you can use your computer mic, just like how you do on a Zoom call or video call for all your online meetings. You can use your microphone to record us a voice message .

[00:24:37] Listener Kelli: I am a hundred percent not Asian, I am American. My husband and I, are raising our family in a small town in the countryside of Southern Taiwan. So in my, in my quest for getting to know the people here and the country I discovered your podcast and have been listening.

 I was prompted to leave this message after listening to the Wang or Wang episode, and I feel pretty strongly that it's Wong. It's absolutely Wong. I, I told you my name, Kelly 

it's not KelLEE, like, it's, it's Kelly , that's my name. And, people can be taught and they should be taught, and I, I would even go as far as saying, people can be taught the proper tone as well.

 The tones, the tones even matter as well. Because it changes the meaning. It changes the name. It's, it's truly not the name. You know what I mean? I don't know what it's like to have a name that's hard to pronounce.

 Americans can be called on to honor and respect different names.

[00:25:44] Angela: I loved her feedback about our Wang or Wang episode, which is all about how we pronounce our names

[00:25:52] Annie: She makes an excellent point about how really your name is your name, and it totally makes sense to insist that people pronounce it properly. And I completely agree with that. And then I also think then there's the other part of the practical application that will vary person to person, because it does take energy and effort to get people to pronounce your name correctly.

So depending on the priority that that individual puts on putting that energy out, certainly it's up to them on a case by case basis, what they wanna do. But yes, a hundred percent fundamentally agree with that point about. , your name is your name and people should absolutely learn to pronounce it correctly, and because that's a important part of your identity is your name.

[00:26:42] Angela: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:43] Annie: thanks Kelly. Love that.

[00:26:46] Angela: Yes. We got a really thoughtful email from a listener who's similar age to us, but grew up in Taiwan. So they gave us their perspective on their identity, how their sense of identity has changed from the perspective of someone who's been growing up in Taiwan. So they clarified to us that the education and environment influenced very much how they identify themselves.

They consider this period from 2008 to now they call it the post DPP period.

And they say no one really cares so much now. Compared to previous periods, the economy in Taiwan's pretty bad. But by contrast, mainland China's economy is growing quickly. So they don't have to necessarily denounce their Chinese identity. They can kind of play both sides.

 We have also found that this year, we have been popping up elsewhere outside of the podcast.

[00:27:49] Annie: So this summer we participated in a round table through Hyphen Magazine, which involved a number of other Taiwanese Americans which was really cool.

It was great to collaborate with some of these other thought leaders in the Taiwanese American community.

[00:28:06] Angela: We were featured on the sarcastic news channel called EYECTV on YouTube, E Y E C T V, , they normally broadcast in all Mandarin and are mainly known in Taiwan.

But this episode, they happened to be in the Bay Area and so they came out and interviewed me among other Chinatown residents in order to get a feel for how in America people view the R.O.C. or Republic of China especially whether the R.O.C. flag still makes sense to people here, or are people adopting.

We'll say red and yellow Chinese flag, if they identify as as Chinese or if, if even Taiwanese people still embrace the, the R.O.C. flag. So it was a really interesting conversation, made me realize that R.O.C. is not just Taiwan, which I've always equated them as equivalent. It made me realize that there are a lot of diaspora who left China during the era of R.O.C..

And so they are Chinese diaspora, but see the R.O.C. Flag as their flag. And they, they went through Hong Kong or Southeast Asian countries and or just, you know, their families immigrated more generations ago and they, they identify as R O C as well. So that was really eye-opening. And in addition to some lovely mentions on Taiwanese american.org I was totally surprised by a recent essay called Cong You Bing a catalyst for Taiwanese Self-Identity, which I love because cong you bing is one of my favorite Taiwanese dishes by Ryan Ma.

He's a university student right now at Pomona College, and he just wrote a really beautiful and thoughtful essay about his personal experiences as well as referencing all these other sources, including our podcast,

[00:30:10] Annie: Holy shit. We're connecting with Gen Z. They actually find us relatable. 

So Y L E Radio, which is a Finnish radio station, reached out to us to conduct an interview about Taiwanese American perspective. I really enjoyed that.

[00:30:31] Angela: Yeah. So now we have not only been interviewed in English, but also Russian and Finnish. So , it's so cool to to hear these multilingual radio broadcasts featuring our voices. So we are international, truly.

[00:30:49] Angela: The opening music was an excerpt from "PUNCHLINE" by Jaguar Jonze. That's spelled J O N Z E from her debut album, BUNNY MODE, available on vinyl and all your favorite streaming platforms. We'll close the episode and the season with another song from BUNNY MODE called "LITTLE FIRES". You can find the links to listen to the full versions of these songs, as well as all the other resources we mentioned today in our show notes. 

In the spirit of "LITTLE FIRES". We hope that joining us on this journey has helped you connect with your truth more deeply so that you can use your voice to make changes from wherever you are. 

Thanks so much for joining us for Hearts in Taiwan. In between episodes, you can see what's on our minds on Instagram or Facebook at Hearts in Taiwan. Or contact us through our website Hearts in Taiwan dot com. 

[00:31:37] Annie: Keep telling us the thoughts and questions that come up for you when you listen to our podcast. Our DMs are always open. Or you can email us at hello@heartsintaiwan.com. Until then, follow your curiosity.

[00:31:49] Angela: And follow your heart!

​